I suppose anyone who can fix computers eventually gets to the end of his patience with always being asked to help with everyone’s problems. It’s like being the guy with the van, who always gets asked to help people move. For a long time I’ve helped out a lot of people with their computer issues. I’ve always been careful to keep it in control as much as possible and not let it get out of hand. And I like to tinker, so some of it has been fun. But increasingly it’s just tedious and annoying. Not because I don’t like the people I help; I do, generally. It’s because of Windows.
Mostly people who need help, need help with Windows. Mac users have a pretty stable OS, an excellent anyone-can-do-it interface, and gobs of terrific support from Apple. Linux users usually don’t come whining to someone else when their systems have problems; mostly they fix things themselves. It’s part of the fun. So this makes Windows users the consumers of most of the “free help” that comes from people like me.
It’s not entirely their fault. Windows, for release after release, is just one big broken promise. The slick happy interface promises a smooth, high-tech, trouble-free experience, and Microsoft’s marketing takes full advantage of that misconception. But that promise is never, ever fulfilled. Sooner or later, on every computer it’s installed on, Windows’ inherent flaws break the system. We all know what happens. More and more frequent reboots. Slow performance. Junkware and crapware and spyware slowing things down, and even if they’re not there to do it, the scanners to catch them slow things down on their own. Viruses and incompatible .dll files and broken drivers and too many things being loaded as services that have no reason to exist. Disk fragmentation and registry cruft. Eventually the system gets too weighted down with all this crap to be usable, and it grinds to a useless halt, and you have to reinstall the operating system to clean things up and start fresh.
Experienced Windows users learn to minimize this damage. The problem is not really with those users, though they’re not immune to it and eventually wind up having to reinstall Windows. The problem is with the non-technical users, who make up the vast majority of users. These people don’t understand resource management, can’t make a good snap judgment about whether what they’re about to install is safe or not, don’t know or care if something is likely to conflict or slow things down. And that’s okay; not everyone wants to be a geekazoid like me. But in their zeal to market Windows, Microsoft makes it look easy and safe and harmless, and shields users from the hard stuff. And there’s the rub: Windows isn’t actually smart enough to work right for very long without some informed geekery.
Non-technical users, especially kids, will click to install almost anything. I just got done fixing a Windows laptop that had three competing spyware scanners running all at once, plus at least one piece of malware masquerading as a virus scanner, and four add-in browser search toolbars from various commerce sites, plus another one in the taskbar. There was so much junk running on this box that I couldn’t do anything besides a fresh OS install; taking things out of the registry manually was a hopeless task. People see those pop-up windows that say “Your computer is infected! Click here to install a free system cleaner!” And they click it. And of course, the system wasn’t really infected, but now it is. That had clearly happened with this box, at least once and possibly several times.
Anyway, to reiterate: I don’t really blame the users so much. Yeah, they could be more vigilant, but they’ve been led on by Microsoft’s repeated insistence that This Is The Way Things Are, and that Windows is still the best option, and that security problems and operating system degradation are just facts of the universe and as unavoidable as, oh, I don’t know, death and taxes. Which seems like a pretty apt analogy, except that we know it’s not true. Unix-like systems, which by now means everything besides Windows, mostly don’t have these issues. I’ve never seen a Linux box brought to its knees by too much carelessly-installed junk. Partly this is because Linux users tend to be technically astute and don’t install the junk, but it’s also because the junk can’t take control and run as a service or rewrite system libraries or system configuration for its own benefit, so there’s a sharp limit on how much dumbassery it can commit. So Windows uptime eventually comes to be measured in hours, whereas Linux uptime continues to be measured in months.
This frustration is finally boiling over on me. I’m tired of getting the same machines back that I fixed only a few months previously, to find them once again crufted up with junk and malware and general Windows brokenness. And I’m tired of not being able to extricate the bad from the good the way you can on a Linux box if something goes awry with an application. I’m tired of having to reboot over and over and over again as you try to fix things. And most of all, I’m tired of having to give up and reinstall the OS as a maintenance task. When I was a Windows user, years ago, I accepted this the same way Windows users still do. But now that I know it is not necessary, it just grates my teeth every time I have to do it. On a Linux box, reinstalling the operating system because you can’t figure out the solution to your problem means you didn’t try hard enough. You could lose your geek license for that. And even though on Windows everyone knows that’s not how it works, I’m so accustomed to thinking the Linux way by now that having to do a Windows reinstall feels like a personal failure – even though objectively I know it’s no failure of mine to be unable to fix an operating system that is designed to break and not designed to be fixed. It’s just too frustrating.
So I’m cutting everyone off. Well, no, not everyone. I’ll still help my non-technical friends who are running Linux now, because I got them started on it. But strangely, they don’t seem to need much help, after the initial learning curve. Their systems don’t break. I wonder why? But no more fixing Windows. I just don’t want to deal with it any more. Let them call the manufacturer for advice. They’ll just wind up reinstalling the OS anyway, so what do they need me for?
Know what you mean about the van. I have a public licence for a particular service, and give freebies to all my friends when required. (As for you, Dwasifar, you’re entitled to a lifetime supply plus all my daughters as concubines, if I had any.) But I get majorly pissed when some acquaintance calls me for the first time in five years, insincerely asks how I am, and I can just tell that he’s only going to ask for another freebie.
Niggle: OSX is much less customisable than Windows in particular ways that are important to me, namely the visual. Apple is like the bouncer who won’t let you into the club because of infractions of cool. I guess Linux is more flexible there?
I was a middling Windows user, somewhere between granny and geek (all right, some grannies are geeks, but you know what I mean) and didn’t have so much trouble. My main virtue was not installing crud, not out of expertise but out of healthy paranoia. In fact I ran it for 12 years without getting a virus, and that was using WE and OE too. Falling for the “Your computer is infected!” scam was unthinkable. When I got a new machine I tended to go through it on the phone with my supplier, asking, “What is this? Do I need it? Can I throw it out?” If I didn’t use it, I didn’t want it on my drive; I aspired to a sort of Japanese-aesthetic minimalism. Perhaps in consequence, hardware lifetime more or less exceeded times between OS reinstalls.
So I tend to agree with you that the problem is the crap under the hood + dumb users + MS misleading them. At first, anyway; recent versions have gone to the other extreme, with frantic squawking about security that makes doing anything a pain, which contrasts with the ease of installing recommended freeware in OSX. Windows is like having a house with an unlockable front door and ladders up to the bedroom windows, patrolled instead by five different firms of security contractors in dark glasses.
Yes. Actually desktop Linux is by far the most flexible of the three, which is funny because most people think of Linux as being just text, like MS-DOS, if they have heard of Linux at all. In Linux you have your choice of several different desktop environments, ranging from very lean and fast to full-featured and slick with lots of cool visual effects, and several different menuing and windowing paradigms. Most of them are extensively customizable. Window bars and borders, controls and sliders, fonts and font sizes, and icons are all easily changed, and there are hundreds of choices available for each, free to download from the individual designers.
My personal Linux desktops tend to resemble Mac desktops, because I think Apple has always been on the leading edge of interface design, except that I keep my window control buttons on the right corner. But I could easily move them to the left. There is a whole “look at my cool desktop” subculture among Linux geeks, trading screenshots of their customized desktops and beautiful layouts and backgrounds.
I think those attempts at security are more to protect Microsoft than to protect the user. Having the machine yammer about security at every step creates a boy-who-cried-wolf effect, where people just get accustomed to clicking Allow every time that window comes up, or else they disable it because it’s too annoying. Then, when something gets through, the user blames himself for ignoring the warning, in spite of having been conditioned to do so. It’s like the lawyer-excreted warning labels everywhere you go. After you’ve seen too many of them, you don’t see them at all.
Until the kernel gets updated automatically but the video driver doesn’t.
If someone had given me that description of Linux customisability two years ago, I might not have gone Mac at all.
@david
I’m guessing you haven’t heard of DKMS? Every modern Linux distro will automatically rebuild all the kernel modules loaded when an new kernel is installed.
@Socceroos
I think David had a problem recently with Fedora not doing that for him. He got a kernel update and it broke his video, leaving him to solve the problem on the fly. I remember once that happened with Ubuntu, I think back during the Hoary release, but all it required was dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg to reset the xorg.conf file and I was back in business.
To be fair, I have seen some similar problems with Ubuntu more recently where the video drivers did not make the transition successfully when doing a version upgrade. This had to do mostly with proprietary nvidia drivers, though (as did David’s problem too, if memory serves). It mostly is a problem for Ubuntu users who installed nvidia video drivers on their own, e.g. with EnvyNG or compiling them from source. So again, we go back to problems with proprietary code.
A postscript to my original rant: that Windows laptop came back to me the very next day. Dell’s driver for the wireless card installs side-by-side with the Windows wireless administration tool. Configuration is handled by the Dell tool, but both of them put icons in the systray. The woman I did the work for gave it to her fiance to get connected to their network. Apparently he disabled the Dell administration icon in systray, tried to use the remaining Windows icon to connect to the wireless, then gave it to her to give back to me because it wouldn’t work. Of course the Dell admin app was still available in Start>Programs and from Control Panel, and I had it connected to my wireless network in about 90 seconds after booting it up. I restored the tray icon for the Dell admin app and sent it back again with more specific instructions about which one to use.
That is part of the MYTH that windoze are easy. Because you get free support from your geek friends that nowadays usually use Linux primarily(I am one of them). Guess what? Free support for windoze is over. Ask me to install and teach you the basics of Ubuntu (or whatever distro) and everything is ok. I won’t spend another hour of my life in order to help ms keep making billions…
Yeah I know what you mean, some people will just click on anything being totally unaware of the repercussions. People just amaze me how silly they can be with PC’s. Several years ago one of my bosses had a Windows box which was used for doing all the financials for the business and one day I asked did he have any anti-virals on there…the answer was no ! I was in shock and when it was scanned there were hundreds on infections.
I too am sick of fixing people’s Windows PCs as well, if its not a gut full of malware, it has a registry that has been so been made so punch drunk that it just runs slower than a Vic 20 running at 50%.
One friend I shifted over recently to linux never calls me for help, whereas with windows it was all too often. Says it all to me and this is a person that is not tech savvy at all.
If you don’t start charging for fixing Windows, it will make you a very bitter person. I know at the beginning I didn’t know anything and really appreciated when my friend came over and overwrote Windows ME with Windows 2000. He taught me a bunch of stuff too and I would call him sometimes with some obscure questions but I don’t remember ever being super dependent on him for everything. Ever since then, I don’t know how, but people started calling me to fix their problems. Out of the gratitude I felt towards my friend, I didn’t charge at first. Especially if it was to install some software or just on how to do something specific.
But then people would call me to fix computers with boatloads of viruses. I’m talking running several anti-malware, anti-virus, livecds and still the problem was there. Hours and hours later, it was still not clean, would not boot right or there was something missing or glitching. Complete re-installs were needed on most. And some of these were people who I knew of, but never really called me unless they needed some help and then I would hear some fake how are you and I need help or will you come over for dinner and after dinner, boom, I invited you over to help me setup Outlook and do virus scans. So I started charging, a small fee of $40 for virus problems, anything else, extra. But the same people kept calling me like 2 months later with the same problems. I would look at their computer and see they are running Kazaa, Limewire, Frostwire. I tell them not use these programs and they will cut their problems by probably 90% but they keep using them. Very frustrating. So for these people, the fee is now $95. I feel much better now.
[...] No more Windows support It’s not entirely their fault. Windows, for release after release, is just one big broken promise. The slick happy interface promises a smooth, high-tech, trouble-free experience, and Microsoft’s marketing takes full advantage of that misconception. But that promise is never, ever fulfilled. Sooner or later, on every computer it’s installed on, Windows’ inherent flaws break the system. We all know what happens. More and more frequent reboots. Slow performance. Junkware and crapware and spyware slowing things down, and even if they’re not there to do it, the scanners to catch them slow things down on their own. Viruses and incompatible .dll files and broken drivers and too many things being loaded as services that have no reason to exist. Disk fragmentation and registry cruft. Eventually the system gets too weighted down with all this crap to be usable, and it grinds to a useless halt, and you have to reinstall the operating system to clean things up and start fresh. [...]
Thank god I’m not alone in this! I’ve also abandoned helping anyone (outside my direct family) with Windows related problems.
I used to help over 20 people a week. Now its just three family members, that’s it! (Only one I have to really worry about with malware, as I’ve already trained the other two to use non-Admin and corrected their habits to be more security aware).
I have one box running Debian. Its NEVER been formatted since 2005. That’s 4 years of consistent use as a desktop…And this is coming from someone who has used Windows 3.0 to Windows Vista!
Oh yeah. Not an IT guy but been saddled with such duties as ancillary since the early 90′s so have the requisite piles of parts, carcasses, and components that play the role of the big Van. So have gotten/I get a lot of neighbor’s systems that show up in the garage with the “How’s things going…” (w/o having talked for two years) with the box under their arm. About 18-24 months ago I got tired of “repeat business” so I started charging fees, not for profit but to steer choices with the long-term goal of killing repeat business. I setup from some old parts 6 machines in a row in the garage on a spare bench 1) Unbuntu, 2) Fedora, 3) Puppy (on an old laptop), 4) PCLinuxOS 5) OS/X (a Hackintosh) and 6) WinXP. Each is hooked to the DSL link, and each is with a pile of CD’s printed with the nice label (“official looking curtesy a friend at Kinko’s) except #5 and #6 (due to EULA’s). Taped on the wall above is the handwritten fee schedule which reads; Options 1 through 4 fresh install, $25.00, Options 5 and 6 fresh install $80.00. Discount for performing three tasks and spending at least 30 minutes use time on the machines 1-4 (which are write a quick formal letter in a word processor, do one fake/real online transaction, and watch 2-3 streaming video’s); if they do this they get a $25.00 refund. It’s funny how many will jump at the “discount” opportunity and go and use the 1-4 machines so the inevitable questions roll; What/Where is OpenOffice, where is the browser?, am I very patient as these roll (hey take 2 hours…I am trying to make a sale). As the clincher is “the revert option back to option #6 given for free after one month of trying #1-5″ About 80% of those coming in with their malware infested WinXP/Vista boxes now leave with (a free) GNU/Linux box. I have probably switched about 25-30 people this way and its seems none come back crawling with malware, some come back wanting upgrades, but these are easy quick fixes.
Wow! Are there some great comments in this thread!So much said echos my experiences also. Over the years I have realized some basic truths about the computer service/repair business.
At one point I was very generous with my time when “fixing” customers Windows based systems. I really felt sympathy for their plights and quite often would knock off time on their bills for the time I had spent getting their systems functioning again. I am a Linux user myself. One day it dawned on me who my generosity was REALLY benefiting. It certainly wasn’t me and it wasn’t really the customer either. It was Microsoft.
Microsoft has manged to create an entire infrastructure based on shoddy products. This infrastructure is incredibly bloated and consists of everyone from computer/hardware manufacturers, to software programmers, to network engineers, to support people, to antivirus and security vendors, to software sales clerks at various retail outlets to me and maybe even you. Much of this infrastructure exists for the sole purpose of propping up an inferior product. Were that product to be replaced tomorrow by a superior product, such as Linux,many of the people involved in supporting Microsoft’s products would be unemployed the very next day.
It is my belief that Microsoft is fully aware of this situation and rather than engineering better quality into thier products they are instead engaged in a program of diversifying themselves into as many markets as they can to further entrench themselves into the world economy. That even includes non computer/software markets.
The lack of quality in some of these efforts is readily apparent. (example 54% returns on Xbox360) It is also my belief that this diversification will eventually also include that entire support infrastructure I mentioned above. That means your possible computer/software work and mine. I do not believe that Microsoft has any intention of doing this out of kind regard for the customer. No, it is my belief that they will do this out of paranoia. People like us are threats to their long term stability. They will simply be acting out of paranoia to eliminate the possible perceived threat, nothing more.
So, a few rules I now live by with regards to Windows using customers.
1. Charge for EVERY minute wasted “fixing” their systems. While you might feel sympathy for their plight make sure they understand the REAL cost of Windows by charging them for ALL the time you spent “fixing” it.
2. Do not, EVER, reload a Windows system without the customer supplying their original system disks. Don’t just load a copy you have lying around that “might” work, at least until you get to the registration part of the install. Don’t even go there. No disks, no workee.
3. If they do not have their original system disks but their hard drive restore actually functions use that. Whether it works or it doesn’t work make SURE they know what a ripoff the whole don’t supply system disks use hard drive restore thing is. Make SURE they understand that this ultimately benefits Microsoft in creating “double dipping” sales when some percentage of Windows using customers have to replace OS copies they should have been supplied with in the first place. Make SURE they understand other implications such as the crashed hard drive scenario where they lose their OS copies as well.
4. When they ask a question like “why do I get this virus problem?” or some security related question like that be sure to let them know that Microsoft’s product quality is ultimately the reason they are visiting you in the first place. Make sure to help them learn that this issue does not exist for Linux users. Be fair and let them know about Apple/Mac as well. Tell them that if they would really like to stop going through this kind of problem they should buck up and bite the bullet, dump Windows completely, and get on with just using the computer like it was originally intended to be used rather than wasting vast amounts of time and money babysitting Windows.
5. Don’t “sugar coat” the alternatives. Let them know you use it. Let them know its more a matter of relearning a few things and having an open mind much like they did when they learned Windows in the first place.
I am gradually moving into more ideas and “rules” as time goes on. I may start installing a virtual machine software in reloaded Windows systems by default and keeping a few Linux images around to make the process fast just so customers can “see” Linux for themselves first hand.
I have a few friends in the business in this area. Some are, sadly, still firmly entrenched in the “Microsoft Way” of doing things. Using silly overpriced software tools to fix registrys, viruses etc. These are more wastes of time than anything else and only serve to give someone else in that support infrastructure an income. I left all of that behind a long time ago. These days I simply back up the data, reload Windows and restore the data. I’m done wasting time that can’t be realistically billed to the customer for the “privilege” of propping up an inferior product from an illegal monopoly.
@lpbbear
@L4Linux
L4Linux’s comment about helping Windows users really benefiting MS in the end really put a different perspective on it for me. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, and it made me think about the whole thing differently; and I was planning to post an extended comment about that. But then I got back to the screen and found lpbbear had pretty much already said everything I was planning to say about that.
I am not actually in the system support business. I’m a coder and a consultant. All the other geekery I do, I do for myself because I like playing with computers. So it’s a little more difficult to tell people I’m going to charge them for fixing their systems; it’s not really my line of work.
But the attitude I got (secondhand) from the laptop’s owner today cemented my decision. “My fiance did NOT delete the wireless management icon! It just wasn’t there!” Riiiiight. It hid itself all on its own. I give the work away for free, even swapping out the flaky hard drive for a larger one from my parts bin out of generosity, and this is what I get back. Pfft. I’m done.
The truth is, if your only solution to fix a problem with Windows is a reinstall, you do not know what you’re doing. Period. You are ignorant. But, I wouldn’t expect a Linux zealot to bother to learn anything that wasn’t Unix based.
Like a Republican trashing a Democrat, you paint an entirely one sided picture full of lies, half truths, outdated information, and just plain stupidity. A sad man you are.
NO WAY dude! Apple pretends that Linux and BSD do not exist. MAC OS has BSD kernel, so programs made by Apple should be ridiculously easy be ported to BSD(they should actually run unmodified) and very easy to Linux. Yet Apple does not port them. There is no way I ‘ll ever advertise them for free. I’ll pretend that they don’t exist as well:)
I knew I’d get at least one Microsoft troll comment.
Fella, I am far from ignorant about Windows under the hood. I’ve been working with it since probably before you ever touched a computer, every version from Vista all the way back to Windows 2.0 (yes, from 5.25″ floppy disks), and MS-DOS before that. I can remove rootkits and hand-edit the registry with the best of them. And I’m not unique; you’re unlikely to find a “Linux zealot” who doesn’t have extensive experience with Windows. So don’t flatter yourself that you have superior knowledge. You don’t.
I never said reinstalling Windows was always the only possible solution. Sometimes they’re not too far gone and you can clean out the bad registry entries, shut down the unnecessary services, run virus scans and spyware scans. But often you can’t, or it’s not practical. The viruses are dug in too deep, too many system files have been corrupted, too much is wrong. And that’s the point when the user takes it to somebody and says “fix it,” and the tech winds up needing to reinstall because you can’t spend all day on every corrupted computer that comes through. This happens because Windows’ pathetic security structure allows programs to have the run of the system directories. Vista’s answer to this is to put up warning windows that mean nothing to most users and condition them to always click Allow.
If you want to spend days painstakingly combing through the registry and modifying entries by hand to get rid of malware, struggling to get rid of virus files that are using Windows’ own system file protection to protect themselves from deletion, and trying to work out exactly which compromised system file needs to be replaced and what will happen to the dependencies when you do, knock yourself out.
A useful analogy might be a totaled car. When the cost of repairing the damage exceeds the cost of replacement, you replace it. Similarly, when the time cost of fixing all the problems in a Windows machine exceeds the time cost of reinstalling and restoring, you reinstall. Sure, sometimes it’s possible to fix a $20,000 car with $40,000 in repairs. But what idiot would want to?
And if you are doing it the old “Microsoft Way” you are today where I was several years ago. Don’t ASSume you are talking to someone who doesn’t know what I am doing when it comes to this subject. Don’t ASSume I am a “Linux Zealot. Don’t ASSume I am sad. (and WTF does Reps and Dems have to do with anything…D’oh!)
My guess is you are either one of the many spoiled self important 13 year old Windows using trolls that roam the Internet posting ridiculous crap like your post here or you are a paid TE for Microsoft or you are simply an…..idiot. It can’t be anything else based on the complete vacuum of thought in your post.
Now go back and reread what I posted earlier more carefully. I did not say there was only one way to repair Windows. What I did say was that I have found over the years it is more efficient of MY time and costs my customer MUCH LESS to simply backup their data. reload Windows, and restore their data. I have been in the business since 1990 (probably longer than you have been alive) and I am fully aware I could spend endless hours screwing around with virus scanners, editing the registry and all that other incredibly inefficient BS. Not gonna do that anymore. Wipe and reload, faster and cheaper and I don’t end up with unrealistic wasted time that I can’t realistically bill the customer for that ultimately only benefits Microsoft by prolonging the pretense that they have products worth a damn. (they don’t BTW)
As you said “The truth is” you are either not doing this for a living……or……if you are…..you are a member of that “bloated support infrastructure” I referred to in my earlier post and you feel threatened by those of us “daring” to print the truth about Microsoft and their crappy products….because it threatens your cushy existence.
(actually “The truth is” I think you are an immature self important 13 year old but what the heck)
My $.02: Linux is the server platform of choice for me (2nd only to IBM i) … but on the desktop, and for consumer use, it has a LONG way to go.
The lack of first class driver support is my main problem … video & network (primarily wireless) drivers either don’t exist, perform poorly, or are poorly supported.
I’ve been playing with Ubnutu on my scorched earth machine (named mordor, btw) and it seems to handle most of the devices drivers fine. But the drivers it uses are not open source and I have to confirm that I want to use 3rd party drivers.
When I was using Fedora on mordor and also on my laptop, I encountered significant problems. The NVidia drivers had to be rebuilt every time the kernel changed … and the Broadcom wireless card (Dell branded) had no support at all. Yes, I could use the NDIS Wrapper to get the wireless working … but I shouldn’t have to. THe card should just work.
On my last attempt to install nvidia drivers (downloading the necessary code from the nvidia site), I couldn’t get the driver to compile … and nobody seemed particularly interested in helping. The card was relatively old … and was no longer actively supported in the current drivers.
For these reasons I (currently) would not recommend Linux as a desktop OS for anyone except a very technically adept person … or a person who has ready access to a technical person.
Quite possible. His comment was caught by the comment-spam filter; I had to manually approve it. I don’t see anything in the comment itself that would trigger it to be tagged as spam, so there must be some other reason he’s in Akismet’s blacklists.
That would be nice, but why blame Linux for Broadcom’s refusal to release open source drivers or the technical information needed for the community to write some?
As far as the nvidia drivers, perhaps that is a problem specific to Fedora. I’ve had issues in Ubuntu where manually installed video drivers didn’t make it through a version upgrade correctly, but I’ve never ever had to do anything to the video drivers after a simple kernel update, and I’ve never had to build the nvidia drivers from source, either.
Yes, I agree that Linux has a long way to go on the desktop but dwasifar is right in pointing out the fact that many of these companies, such as Broadcom, refuse to fully support Linux. This fact enhances the feeling that Linux has a long way to go in some users minds. In reality its not so much that Linux has a long way to go but more that these companies who withhold support for Linux make it “appear” that Linux has a long way to go.
Look at it another way.
You have already indicated that you feel as though “Linux is the server platform of choice for me (2nd only to IBM i)” which to me indicates you are aware of how stable and solid Linux is. That has been my experience as well. But you feel that “on the desktop, and for consumer use, it has a LONG way to go”. But what exactly changes your perception from the server experience to the desktop experience? After all, underneath its the same rock solid operating system in both cases.
Remember, Linux supports and uses the very same architecture as Windows, the x86, among others. Why should it be any more difficult for these companies, like Broadcom, to create or contribute drivers for Linux that work properly? In my opinion its probably not. My guess is that they already support the Mac platform just fine.
Ok, so whats the next reason or reasons they seem reluctant to support Linux properly?
Is it market share maybe?
Well, supposedly the market share of web servers is pretty large for Linux. I assume at least some of those systems use the various poorly supported devices from these reluctant companies? Perhaps the admins end up having to substitute a better supported device in these systems?
Ok, well, maybe then these companies are using the market share excuse to not support Linux desktops?
Estimates vary widely of how big the market share of Linux really is. Is it the low of 2% or is it higher than Apple’s share, maybe 10%, or higher?
No matter which it is when was the last time you saw ANYONE PURPOSELY blowing off 2% of the revenue let alone 10%?
In my opinion this kind of thing is happening because of Microsoft.
Microsoft is in some cases using its market dominance and the clout that gives them to pressure these companies to foot drag on supporting Linux. I believe some of these companies are afraid in some cases. In other situations, such as Asus, the companies may be colluding with Microsoft to hamper the advancement of Linux. And in other cases, such as Yahoo, or Corel a few years back, Microsoft is engaging in hostile take overs and planting Microsoft friendly people in positions of power to defang these companies and derail any Linux efforts they are engaged in.
And in even other cases Microsoft is funding behind the scenes attempts to hamper Linux by engaging in lawsuits by proxy (SCO) or threatening vague phony patent lawsuits claiming Linux is infringing on their unseen patents and strong arming them into signing “partnerships” with Microsoft. Xandros, Novell, Buffalo etc. for instance.
IS IT ANY WONDER YOU SEE ISSUES WITH THE LINUX DESKTOP??????
What you should be realizing is that despite all of this the Linux desktop is doing pretty damn well! Were these issues removed and not hampering Linux Microsoft would have assumed its place in the forgotten history of computers and software long ago….and THEY KNOW THIS.
All of these kinds of tactics worked fine for Microsoft in the past, when they were raking in money hand over fist by screwing the public…that is….until the Vista flop. Vista has been the biggest single disaster for Microsoft since its inception. Its a DOG and their falling revenue numbers indicate just how much of a dog it really is.
Now Windows 7 is coming and Microsoft is once again claiming its the greatest thing since sliced bread and peanut butter. But so far, from what I have read about it, it has basically the same miserably bloated requirements as Vista. Yes, its supposedly slightly better performing than Vista but still,…..basically its Vista slightly improved, nothing more. I have seen it described as “Vista…with lipstick”.
Ok, sure, there are some people out there who say things like “Well, Vista works fine for me” and in some cases it does work fine….as long as you have a system with plenty of horsepower to run it. Thats all fine and good….BUT…..
I don’t know about you but I want my system to be efficient. If I am going to be stuffing 4 gbs of memory and a super fast multi core CPU into a system I damn sure want to reap the benefits of all the horsepower in increased performance. In other words I expect that kind of horsepower to act like a dragster. It damn well better leave tire marks halfway down the track!
Instead what you are seeing is a totally inefficient operating system that barely leaves the timing lights let alone leaving tire tracks down the track!
On the other hand my Linux system DOES improve in performance when I add that much horsepower to it. Its like lightning!
Another aspect that hardly EVER gets mentioned is the environmental impact of such a horribly inefficient OS as Vista/Windows 7. Even though Vista has had dismal sales it IS still selling. While those numbers may appear small by Microsoft’s monopolistic standards there still have been a lot of systems sold with Vista. Since thats ALL retail outlets now carry that fact is quite obvious.
What is happening now, as a result of Vista, is there has been steady dumping of perfectly good computers by consumers duped into believing their systems are out of date and too old to be functional into the used and landfill arena’s. You can open up Craigslist and find perfectly good and powerful system being practically given away by owners who have discovered they can’t run Vista on them. Linux would run like gangbusters on most of these systems. Vista won’t. Nor will Windows 7.
So you might say “Well, thats progress” or something of that nature. I beg to disagree. Progress is making products more efficient. Progress is LOWERING the requirements while increasing performance. Vista, and Windows 7, is quite the opposite. They are horribly inefficient in EVERY area you can name. They require more memory. They requires bigger hard drives. They requires faster processors. They cost more. AND MOST IMPORTANT they require more energy to run and they cause the forced retirement of perfectly good older systems which are in many cases ending up in landfills all of which contributes to the environmental impact on this planet.
In my opinion Microsoft has forced itself into a position of placing its own back to the wall. Windows 7 is a make it or break it for Microsoft. The tactics they have engaged in are now too well known by the general public for them to continue doing the same ol same ol without raising the ire of that same public who buys their products. People are NOT happy about Microsoft. Its no longer me telling customers about Microsoft and its “activities”, its the customers telling me how much they hate Microsoft and Windows!
In my opinion Microsoft has circled their wagons against the oncoming hordes as tightly as they are going to be able to. They are nearing that “Bridge Too Far” scenario. It will happen in the next couple of years. When it does it will be game over for Microsoft and they will assume their well deserved position in history they have forced so many other companies and superior technologies into in the past.
And I won’t miss them a single bit!
lpbbear :
I am quite aware … I run multiple servers to run technical discussion mailing lists for the IBM i community. I’ve run them on Linux for about 15 years. I’ve had very few problems.
Nothing changes my perception of Linux’s core OS … it will be as rock solid on the desktop as it is on a server … but a desktop machine is not the same as a server. Not by a long shot.
A server’s mission is to provide services to the network … the user does not directly interact with it (in general) and so the user interface can (and should be) bare bones and minimalistic. For this reason I never run X on my servers.
A desktop machine, on the other hand, is the users only way of interacting those servers … it must be as friendly and (relatively) bullet proof as possible. This means that the video has to perform well and be as crisp as possible. Network drivers need to install automatically and work exactly as they are supposed to. No kludges, work arounds, or funky config files that need to be tweaked.
Sadly, in my experience, Linux doesn’t provide that.
Network hardware that requires NDIS wrapper to work … video drivers that break every time the kernel is updated … this is what makes Linux a non-starter on the desktop for most consumer’s.
As a developer for a software company, I would have to say it’s resources. For every supported platform they have to devote developers & QA people to make it work. Supporting hardware on Windows & Mac probably require a significant number of people. Supporting Linux means you have to hire more developers and testers.
Maybe. Probably. I’m 99.9% sure of it.
I would say the Linux desktop market is far far less than 2%. I would say it’s less than .1%.
Why?
Aside from lack of hardware support … I would say lack of applications.
Yes, there are lots of desktop applications for Linux … but few of them are what consumer’s really want to use (IMO).
Where is Quicken for Linux? Photoshop Elements for Linux? iTunes for Linux (Those are my to main applications, other than email & web, that I use on my XP laptop).
Let’s look at Quicken … I think Quicken isn’t supported on Linux for the same reason I think the hardware isn’t supported … lack of resources. They would have to hire developers, testers, & support people, to handle Linux in addition to the existing platforms they support. Heck, Intuit doesn’t even support Quicken on the Mac the same way as they do on Windows (or at least they didn’t).
Personally, if I could get a personal financial application with similar functionality to Quicken that runs on Linux, I would probably drop Windows in a heartbeat.
As I mentioned … I work as a developer for a software company … and I can tell you, from personal experience, that all computer vendors (software & hardware) have to make choices as to what they will support. Do you support 98% of the market and ignore 2% to avoid having to invest in more personnel costs? Absolutely. That’s just good business.
Actually, I don’t think it’s HAPPENING because of Microsoft … I think it HAPPENED because of Microsoft. The damage is done. Microsoft provided a lot of incentives & benefits to software & hardware developers to support Windows when it first came out. That created the market. M$ doesn’t have to work that hard anymore because they have the market share.
They retain the market share because of momentum. Doesn’t really mater how good or bad Windows Vista or Windows 7 is. If it’s “good enough”, they will continue to retain market share.
I’m not saying that’s good. Not in the slightest. Competition is good. If Linux could give Windows a run for it’s money, it would force Microsoft to make Windows better.
But until the hardware support & applications are available for Linux on a similar level to Windows, it’s not going to happen.
At this point, the only thing I think that’s making Windows worried is OS X. My friend Steve showed me his new Macbook a few weeks ago running Windows apps seamlessly along with Mac apps. That’s the best way to attack Windows.
Of course, when it comes to software, one of the biggest issues I have with even switching to a Mac is that I would have to purchase software all over again. I would REALLY love to buy a software package and get both the Mac and Windows (and Linux) variations of that version on a single CD. Let me install any one I wish and switch to either at any time.
Well, if you haven’t figured it out … I don’t think Linux on the desktop is doing well at all.
It’s not a factor for my customers … and even for my peers in the market place, only the most technically advanced are asking for Linux support from the hardware vendor we primarily deal with (IBM).
“A desktop machine, on the other hand, is the users only way of interacting those servers … it must be as friendly and (relatively) bullet proof as possible. This means that the video has to perform well and be as crisp as possible. Network drivers need to install automatically and work exactly as they are supposed to. No kludges, work arounds, or funky config files that need to be tweaked.”
And for the most part Linux does this.
“Sadly, in my experience, Linux doesn’t provide that.”
That hasn’t been my experience. For the most part Linux DOES provide all that and pretty well given the fact that hardware manufacturers have withheld so much support from it.
“Network hardware that requires NDIS wrapper to work … video drivers that break every time the kernel is updated … this is what makes Linux a non-starter on the desktop for most consumer’s.”
I have only used NDIS wrapper once in all the years I have used Linux. A bit later when I tried a newer distribution the same net card just worked with me doing nothing nor needing NDIS wrapper. No one says you HAVE to update the kernel no more than you HAVE to update from Windows 2000 to WindowsXP to Vista to whatever. I would expect to see as many possible problems with vid cards with changes from one Windows kernel to another. (or are you saying all those stories on the net about Vista hardware compatibility issues with formerly WinXP friendly hardware are not true?)
I use the NVidia driver, the one from NVidia. It takes all of 2 minutes to “recompile” it for a new kernel. Its easier and less time consuming than installing a new driver version in Windows. (for me anyway) I do admit its different from installing a driver in Windows and that may throw off people who have never used anything but Windows but its not “hard” to do once you have the hang of it. As well, as most things in Linux, as time goes on I find I don’t “always” have to do this after kernel updates. I haven’t dug into it but I’m guessing a time is coming where this as an excuse to avoid Linux will also fade into history. (DKMS)
I won’t go on because, in essence, we don’t disagree. We are talking in two different directions. Your focus is to blame “Linux” without recognizing the fact that Microsoft is acting to keep companies from providing the hardware and software support you are claiming isn’t in Linux. My direction recognizes that this is the real issue for Linux.
Theres no golden rule that says Linux can’t provide this support. Its not an inherent problem in Linux itself, but, there have been and still are efforts by Microsoft to make sure that support either never happens, or is hampered for as long as possible, For instance strong arming the companies that could provide that support by providing various (cough, cough) “incentives & benefits” like payoffs, threatening them with lawsuits, threatening their access to Windows licenses, and various other unethical and illegal methods. You are just reacting exactly as Microsoft hopes you will when you try to blame Linux for these issues.
I have been using nothing but the Linux desktop since the mid to late 90′s. I have had zero problems with it acting as a desktop. Of course, I…..don’t expect it to run Windows apps out of the box. Why should I EXPECT it to run Windows apps? Its NOT Windows. (D’oh!)
Continuing to run and support a platform based on reasons like “it’s good enough” or “Quicken isn’t supported” are really excuses to keep the status quo in place. (besides, I have seen newer versions of Quicken and its a bloated mess compared to the versions that originally made it famous)
Blaming Linux for the lack of specific hardware support from companies who continue to not provide that support despite the FACT that there are millions of us out there using Linux only proves the point that I made.
You are making excuses and pointing the blame in the wrong direction. That lack of support for specific devices is NOT the fault of Linux because Linux, out of the box, supports natively far more devices than Windows out of the box. The blame for that issue belongs to the hardware manufacturers who do not support Linux.
But hey, if you like running Windows, keep doing it. No problem here. In my opinion Linux is a much superior operating system and its only a matter of time before Microsoft meets its well deserved end.
Just quit calling the world flat. It ain’t, its round.
lpbbear: It seems to me that you aren’t really getting my point.
First and foremost … I’m not blaming Linux for lack of desktop adoption. I blame the vendors. Sadly, without vendor buy in, Linux on the desktop isn’t going to succeed.
Well, firstly, updating the kernel is *NOT* the same as updating from Win 2K to XP to Vista … and YES, you do have to update the kernel … otherwise you might might miss an important security update.
Oh please … that’s a ridiculous statement. You’re talking about CONSUMER users … not IT professionals.
Windows: Download the driver, run the installer, restart system. DONE. And that RARELY has to be done, if ever, once the system is setup. I setup XP on my mom’s computer a few years ago and the video driver has NEVER been updated once. There’s never been a need.
Linux: Kernel update! X doesn’t start. Make sure you’re at run level 3. Download driver (if needed). Recompile the drivers because there are no pre-built modules available. Deal with newly introduced incompatibilities. Switch to run level 5 or, more likely, reboot. How often does this happen? On a current distro, pretty darn frequently.
Personally, I continue to run Windows because the apps I use are available for it. There is no serious personal accounting app for Linux. And I don’t want to have to deal the video & networking driver issues.
Heck, if Intuit would re-engineer Quicken in Java, I would be on it in a second. Personally, I would love to see them release a single version that runs in Windows, OS X, and Linux … I wouldn’t even care if they didn’t provide primary support for the Linux version.
Keep in mind … the OS is there to facilitate the running of applications. The OS in itself is useless.
FWIW: Although it took me quite a while to get the hang of it, I find Ubuntu to be the closest distro to provide the kind of support that a consumer user would need. It’s not quite there … but it’s getting close.
“lpbbear: It seems to me that you aren’t really getting my point”
I COMPLETELY get your point.
“First and foremost … I’m not blaming Linux for lack of desktop adoption. I blame the vendors. Sadly, without vendor buy in, Linux on the desktop isn’t going to succeed.”
In your original post you sounded as if you were blaming Linux for these issues of hardware support. Now you are at least sounding reasonable in acknowledging that the “vendors” are at fault for not providing support. The further realization to acknowledge is that in many cases this lack of support is due to pressure from Microsoft itself on the hardware and software vendors.
“Well, firstly, updating the kernel is *NOT* the same as updating from Win 2K to XP to Vista … ”
Microsoft glosses over the fact with consumer oriented lipstick but underneath you are still moving from one Windows kernel version to another.
Here is a short list.
http://www.geoffchappell.com/studies/windows/km/ntoskrnl/history/index.htm
Granted its done in a less obvious fashion but yes, you are still moving from one kernel version to another.
“and YES, you do have to update the kernel … otherwise you might might miss an important security update.”
Assuming we are talking about users of both systems connected to the Internet behind firewall/routers thats not nearly as important in Linux as it is in Windows. I think your Windows based paranoia/conditioning is showing there. I’m not saying Linux is invincible, its not, but the issue is so far under the radar when compared with Windows its almost invisible. I have dozens of Linux using customers out there who have been using Linux for years without a single issue of this type. On the other hand the ONLY unaffected by virus/spyware Windows system I have seen was a Win95 (Yes! Win95!) system a couple years back. I was looking at it for a failed hardware device when it dawned on me how clean it was. I asked the owner how he managed to keep it so clear of viruses and such. He grinned and said, “In its entire life I have never connected it to the Internet.”
See…Windows CAN be secure.
“Oh please … that’s a ridiculous statement. You’re talking about CONSUMER users … not IT professionals.”
Actually that was a very REASONABLE statement that assumes most users are not so narrow minded as they grow older that they lack the ability to learn simple things. As I said, once you get the hang of installing the NVidia driver its really NOT THAT HARD.
But that takes for granted that you HAVE to install it in the first place. Were I the normal Joe user who did not give a rats ass about playing games I would not even need to install this driver. I could happily update my Linux and never worry about this “issue”. (Rather than using the manual driver install I could also just use the one provided by Ubuntu…but thats a whole other discussion)
“Personally, I continue to run Windows because the apps I use are available for it. There is no serious personal accounting app for Linux. And I don’t want to have to deal the video & networking driver issues.”
You run Windows apps. Of course they aren’t available in Linux unless those “vendors” port them to Linux which brings us right back to where we were originally. You blame Linux for this issue. ITS NOT LINUX, its the vendors. There have been plenty of “serious” accounting apps for Linux. Quicken is not a “serious” accounting app. Its a checkbook manager. (Quickbooks is the “serious” accounting app from Intuit) I used to use Quicken back in the day when I used WIndows. I liked it then. I have seen its later versions and I don’t like it now nor would I use it even if it were available for Linux. My goals for that kind of app may be different form yours. I am happy with MoneyDance which is a simple easy to use cross platform Java based checkbook app. It works fine for me in Linux. I don’t need or like Quicken these days. I agree about the Quicken Java version. With Java there really is no excuse for them not releasing a version as you describe.
“FWIW: Although it took me quite a while to get the hang of it, I find Ubuntu to be the closest distro to provide the kind of support that a consumer user would need. It’s not quite there … but it’s getting close.”
I am finding myself becoming more dissatisfied with Ubuntu/Kubuntu as time goes on. Its not so much the overall design of their distribution that bothers me. I think that in that area Ubuntu/Kubuntu is well done. I am seeing just too many issues with quality control with the distribution lately. Too many apps that fail to work properly that are in the default repositories. (glabels is a recent 9.04 example, required a download/recompile to get functioning right)
I run 2 systems. Both used to be Kubuntu but one of the systems does just gaming. I just got through battling some very odd issues with the gaming system. I originally thought this was going to turn out to be a hardware issue but as testing went on it became more apparent that the issues were in Kubuntu itself. I shifted over to “Linux Mint” and the issues followed over as well. That would be logical since Mint is based on Ubuntu/Kubuntu. I moved over to Fedora and the issues went away. I later moved to the latest Mepis and they vanished completely there as well.
So right now one system runs Kubuntu 9.04 and one is on the latest Mepis release. One is used as a workstation, the other as a gaming system. Other than the glaring issues with some software I had to fix in the Kubuntu workstation it is working fine but I have to say the Mepis system runs rings around it and I have yet to find any obvious easy to find issues with its Linux implementation.
So from the above you may glean that I am a realist when it comes to Linux. I am fully aware of the warts but I am also fully aware of how much of an impediment Microsoft has been in that process of making Linux the user friendly “product” you want. Some of the blame falls on the people in the Linux community itself (theres no excuse for the glabels issue I mentioned) but a great deal of the issues stem from Microsoft using its dominance in the market to keep Linux from attaining that goal of being the user friendly product you seek. Linux IS a better operating system than Windows. No doubt about it. Point blame where it really belongs. If Ubuntu screws up by including broken apps like glabels in a default repositorie then they deserve to take the heat for it but “Linux” does NOT deserve to be blamed for hardware and software vendors not providing the support you seek. The vendors themselves and Microsoft deserve that heat.
Oh please … that’s just a dumb statement.
Of course upgrading windows updates the kernel … same as upgrading a linux distro. But updating a kernel is NOT the same as upgrading windows.
None the less, the distro managers send out updates on a regular basis … and, assuming the automatic update mechanism is running (which is a safe bet), the kernel will be updated (along with other components).
There is nothing SIMPLE about building a driver for Linux … especially when it doesn’t work perfectly. And I challenge you to find a person who is not a computer expert who can rebuild a kernel module. More to the point … they shouldn’t HAVE to rebuild the kernel module.
I use my mom as a benchmark … if she couldn’t do it … then probably no normal consumer could. My mom has a masters in education and taught special ed and 2nd grade for a very long time. She’s a very smart lady, but she just wants her computer to work.
The point isn’t that they are Windows apps … the point is that apps of the same class aren’t available AT ALL for Linux.
FWIW: Quicken is a very serious personal finance application … yes, it’s got some bloat … I’m not super happy about it either … but it’s the only personal finance application that has support from the banking industry that I’m aware of. MS Money had similar support, but (as I understand it) it’s being withdrawn.
If someone can develop a personal finance application that has the same support from the banking industry, I suspect it would be very popular.
For the record, I’m done with this thread.
Oh well, I tried. You are an extremely narrow minded individual convinced completely in your “rightness”. Your narrow minded and bigoted attitude has shined throughout the entire exchange.
But at least you’ve gone from claiming it was the fault of “Linux” that your hardware and software wasn’t working or available to grudgingly admitting that Linux itself is not the fault. Yes, it IS the fault of the vendors. (and Microsoft)
Have more faith in your Mother. If she can handle the requirements of teaching special ed class and 2nd grade I doubt a couple of commands will throw her too long.
And BTW I couldn’t care less that you are done with the thread. No sleep lost here.
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